Curse

Lady Erighan · Mar 21, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Sorry if this has been posted before, but I can never get the search function on this site to work properly.

Assume the following:

You're using a Mesmer/Ele/Necro and they don't use enchantments and don't have energy problems. You have a Sup. Vigor and you're using one superior offensive rune.

What mods do you choose for your staff:

+30 H/+30 H
+30 H/+5 A
+5 A/+5 A
Other

For those of you that choose the +10 Armor, do you have any reasons and/or facts as to why it would be better than +60 health?

Personally, I think the +10 armor would be more beneficial in the long run. Yes, it's nice to have +60 health for heavy degen and armor ignoring spikes, but after that health has been depleted, your Monks now have to replenish it. Opposed to the armor that is always there and constant.

Does it basically come down to personal preference?

JR · Mar 21, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Erighan

but after that health has been depleted, your Monks now have to replenish it.

Not really a big deal. If you have something like an Ether Prodigy E/Mo Heal Party bot in your build they will do a hell of a lot of that for you. Not to mention if that last 60 health is enough of an issue to heal, chances are you are through the worst of it.

Mage Henchnem · Mar 21, 2006, 05:07 PM // 17:07

I think if you don't have energy problems (witch is uncommon with the variety of different opposing builds out there) then I would go for a health and armor combo, that way you are more well rounded. The +10 armor could work too, I rarely use health mods unless I'm infusing, and even then I usually go for the energy and enchant combo.

JR · Mar 21, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

I rarely use health mods unless I'm infusing, and even then I usually go for the energy and enchant combo.

To quote Ensign:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Janitor

Ow wow..+5 energy. That gives exactly one heal.

Or an additional 40 damage to the enemy when he burns you out with that initial flurry. Max energy capacity is not always beneficial. You'll see monks enter a battle on their -energy set in high level GvG, because there's no benefit to exposing that extra energy from the beginning.

Admittedly he was talking about HoD swords, but i'm fairly sure the same argument applies here. Insightfull is pretty bad.

OrangeArrow · Mar 21, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Well why not have both they both excel in different situations the extra 10 armor on an 60 armor caster is about an 16% reduction in constant damage.

An +60HP staff is great to have against spike teams and to swap to once you get low on health. If you not facing a spike team, the 60 HP is basically doing nothing till you get low enough for it to matter.

If your using a PvP char I would say roll a defensive Staff of defense and supplement it with an cheap PvE Gorrels staff. This way you still get to chose a wand/focus for your second PvP set.

Gorrels staff is a PvE green item with 60HP and some decent generic caster stats. Its very easy to get and will probabaly be the cheapest +60 HP staff out there. get it and stash it in your storage
If money was no object for you get an HoD Axe.

icemonkey · Mar 21, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10

energy problems has nothing to do with it, 5 energy staff head does not equal solution to an energy problem.

Mage Henchnem · Mar 21, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I think having more max energy is very important, and the reson most people dont equip the -1 items at the start is for the regen. I would much rather have more energy then armor as a monk and heres why:

1. more energy = more heals

2. higher max energy = more combinations of spells to cast. (aegis + rof + guardian for example, is a very common combo while going into battle) if you have max energy set lower that will drain you fast.

3. E-denial will have a harder time activating mind wrack with higher max energy, initially

4. Ideally youwill have some type of energy gaining skill in the build, such as bip, br, channeling or whatever, to charge up to a higher max before charing into battle will allow you to heal your team more for that strang assault, instead of shooting off your heals fast when that warrior starts to get hammered then calling for a retreat.

Not to mention, if you are a big fan or armor over energy, then you might not want to take the tatoos, as they have a lower armor rating then the others but the best energy bonus. but I would like to see a monk, even with 100 armor be effective with 25 energy.

dawnrain · Mar 21, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

I would go with the +10 armor for PvP. Assume that in normal (i.e. not all damage is degen/armor-ignoring) combat the +10 armor and +60 hp are initially equal for a 480 hp character. I.e. +10 armor equates to 11% damage reduction, 540 (480+60) damage is reduced to 480. These numbers are equal at the start but slowly shift as the battle progresses and the character is healed. If the character receives 1000 damage the +60hp character has to be healed 461 (1000 - 480 - 60 + 1 (to stay alive)) points to stay alive, however the +10 armor character only has to be healed for 410 (1000 * 89% - 480 + 1) points to stay alive.

For PvE higher max hp reduces mob aggro. If +60 hp is enough to get me max hp in the group (or at least higher than all the tanks) I'd use that.

Divineshadows · Mar 21, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeArrow

Well why not have both they both excel in different situations the extra 10 armor on an 60 armor caster is about an 16% reduction in constant damage.

An +60HP staff is great to have against spike teams and to swap to once you get low on health. If you not facing a spike team, the 60 HP is basically doing nothing till you get low enough for it to matter.

If your using a PvP char I would say roll a defensive Staff of defense and supplement it with an cheap PvE Gorrels staff. This way you still get to chose a wand/focus for your second PvP set.

Gorrels staff is a PvE green item with 60HP and some decent generic caster stats. Its very easy to get and will probabaly be the cheapest +60 HP staff out there. get it and stash it in your storage
If money was no object for you get an HoD Axe.

The armor vs. health issue is one I had been struggling with ever since I began PvPing seriously. The health is always useful, while the armor only matters against physical and elemental damage. Extra armor is compeletely useless against degen as well. To make matters worse, any +XX damage warrior or ranger skill ignores armor. This means that much of the damage from those warrior adrenal spike combos is ignoring your +armor mods. If you are kiting *well* and your team has some form of melee shutdown or slowdown, then the health mods are much more useful.

Observe some of the top GvG matches and you will see that much of the damage that kills is ignoring armor. The only build I have seen in high end GvG that does not rely heavily on armor ignoring damage is a fast-cast air spike.

If you have the room in your weapon sets for a +60 health staff and a +10 armor, then more power to you. As a monk, I need my weapon sets for other things, so my +10 armor staff has been relegated to my pack and will only see the light of day against an opponent that has virtually no armor ignoring damage.

Good point on Gorrel's Staff as a starter option for PvE characters being used to PvP due to its inexpensiveness.

Siliconwafer · Mar 21, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

I think having more max energy is very important, and the reson most people dont equip the -1 items at the start is for the regen. I would much rather have more energy then armor as a monk and heres why:

The reason is if that they equip two -1 energy items, they are going to get the whole lot of it stolen and destroyed, especially with the hordes of surge/burn mesmers around. And once you're on zero on your last focus, you're screwed for energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

I think having more max energy is very important, and the reson most people dont equip the -1 items at the start is for the regen. I would much rather have more energy then armor as a monk and heres why:

1. more energy = more heals

Focus Swap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

2. higher max energy = more combinations of spells to cast. (aegis + rof + guardian for example, is a very common combo while going into battle) if you have max energy set lower that will drain you fast.

Focus swap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

3. E-denial will have a harder time activating mind wrack with higher max energy, initially

E-Denial will get you down to zero very quickly, and the time that takes is insignificant over the course of a match.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

4. Ideally youwill have some type of energy gaining skill in the build, such as bip, br, channeling or whatever, to charge up to a higher max before charing into battle will allow you to heal your team more for that strang assault, instead of shooting off your heals fast when that warrior starts to get hammered then calling for a retreat.

You have a point, although I still feel benefits of having +armour/health outweigh a higher max on your first slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

Not to mention, if you are a big fan or armor over energy, then you might not want to take the tatoos, as they have a lower armor rating then the others but the best energy bonus. but I would like to see a monk, even with 100 armor be effective with 25 energy.

I would much rather stay alive.

Focus swapping means that you don't have to take any +energy modifiers on your staff. Having them on your staff is practically useless. Most monks hae a setup like this:

Slot 1: Staff, combination of either +Armour or +Health Mod
Slot 2: One +15/-1 energy wand with beneficial focus
Slot 3: Two +15/-1 energy items
Slot 4: Negative Energy Items

Furthermore, a monk can be just as effective at 25 energy than at 30, or 40 energy due to this method; the extra energy is a buffer that pales against the fact that you can swap to +30 energy any time, and swap right back without any negative consequences.

In short, I don't care about max energy on my first set because I can manipulate the pool through focus swapping; and would much rather devote the mods to keeping me alive, because that +5 energy will do NOTHING.

JR · Mar 21, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

I think having more max energy is very important, and the reson most people dont equip the -1 items at the start is for the regen. I would much rather have more energy then armor as a monk and heres why:

1. more energy = more heals

2. higher max energy = more combinations of spells to cast. (aegis + rof + guardian for example, is a very common combo while going into battle) if you have max energy set lower that will drain you fast.

3. E-denial will have a harder time activating mind wrack with higher max energy, initially

4. Ideally youwill have some type of energy gaining skill in the build, such as bip, br, channeling or whatever, to charge up to a higher max before charing into battle will allow you to heal your team more for that strang assault, instead of shooting off your heals fast when that warrior starts to get hammered then calling for a retreat.

Not to mention, if you are a big fan or armor over energy, then you might not want to take the tatoos, as they have a lower armor rating then the others but the best energy bonus. but I would like to see a monk, even with 100 armor be effective with 25 energy.

I'm afraid that you clearly have no idea on how to effectively play this game as a caster in high level PvP. Sorry if that sounds offensive, but it's the truth.

Mage Henchnem · Mar 21, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

focus swap isnt the answer to all Im afraid, I know its usefull to counter energy denial but you loose your regen when you use the high energy focus items. And yes I know to swap back and forth, but mind wrack is a pain and if you get denied with your high energy items equipped by chance your really screwed.

I dont think that the health is a major factor on a monk, or the armor for that matter, as a good monk you should be kiting and avaiding dmg as much as possible, and your team should be supporting you in doing this as well. I am not saying you dont need health or armor, but I think that they come secondary. I like to be able to spam heals once in a while and a higher energy pool allows me to do that more effectively then a focus swap. But it all goes back to different play styles, I am an excellent monk and I have tried both methods, this is the one that I personally prefer.

Mage Henchnem · Mar 21, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I'm afraid that you clearly have no idea on how to effectively play this game as a caster in high level PvP. Sorry if that sounds offensive, but it's the truth.

That is your oppinion and since you have never seen me play, it is ignorant to make such a statement. I am not offended, as you don't really know what your talking about when you tell me I don't know how to play, but I appreciate your appology

neoflame · Mar 21, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Being able to focus swap up to a high energy level is strictly better than starting off at that energy level. Therefore, you don't know what you're talking about.

OrangeArrow · Mar 21, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

The armor vs. health issue is one I had been struggling with ever since I began PvPing seriously. The health is always useful, while the armor only matters against physical and elemental damage. Extra armor is compeletely useless against degen as well. To make matters worse, any +XX damage warrior or ranger skill ignores armor. This means that much of the damage from those warrior adrenal spike combos is ignoring your +armor mods. If you are kiting *well* and your team has some form of melee shutdown or slowdown, then the health mods are much more useful.

Observe some of the top GvG matches and you will see that much of the damage that kills is ignoring armor. The only build I have seen in high end GvG that does not rely heavily on armor ignoring damage is a fast-cast air spike.

If you have the room in your weapon sets for a +60 health staff and a +10 armor, then more power to you. As a monk, I need my weapon sets for other things, so my +10 armor staff has been relegated to my pack and will only see the light of day against an opponent that has virtually no armor ignoring damage.

Good point on Gorrel's Staff as a starter option for PvE characters being used to PvP due to its inexpensiveness.

Well to tell you the truth on my monk I don't have a defensive staff of defense and I would be hardpress to find room for it short of keeping my inventory open and double clicking the apporiate wand or staff to swap to during a match. But on other casters I probably could find room for it which is what the OP asked about

Quote:

You're using a Mesmer/Ele/Necro and they don't use enchantments and don't have energy problems. You have a Sup. Vigor and you're using one superior offensive rune.

Though if I was playing a non monk caster I would most likley not use a staff as my main but instead use an 36%recharge set.

Your missing my point. What I am saying is unless your facing a spike team, as long as you have decent health the + fortitude set is doing nothing. Yes the defensive staff is only going to provide you protection from normal warrior attacks and elementalist spells mainly but offering SOME protection is better than offering NO protection which is what fortitude does when you have decent health.
When you have +60 health you just feel safer because you know how much protection +60 health offers, the +10 armor is harder to quantify and understand. If I said +10 armor would mean a difference of 10 damage on a critical Axe hit would it change your opinion any?

If I was forced to pick only one I would pick +60 health since it will probabaly have more situational uses (assuming I use 36% recharge as my main) but I dont want to limit myself just to hypothetical situations.

And my comment about using gorrels staff was not for PvE chars but targeted for PvP chars, using a cheap PvE item to supplement your PvP items allows you more flexibilty and gives you an extra item set to play with on a pvp toon also youll probably be stoping by storage anyways to pick up your negative energy set.

I'm one of those PvE in PvP Hybrid players my storage is full of wands, staffs and focus items that I use to supplement my PvP chars limited inventory and selection so that I can be prepared for many differnet situations and not be limited to just the two sets offered on a PvP toon.

Ensign · Mar 21, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Erighan

You're using a Mesmer/Ele/Necro and they don't use enchantments and don't have energy problems. You have a Sup. Vigor and you're using one superior offensive rune.

What mods do you choose for your staff?

Defensive of Defense for PvE, Hale of Fortitude for PvP. Nearly without exception.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Erighan

For those of you that choose the +10 Armor, do you have any reasons and/or facts as to why it would be better than +60 health?

For a character at max health with a single superior, the damage reduction from the defensive mods actually makes you more durable than the extra health, provided that the damage coming in is affected by armor (Defensive of Defense is 86 'virtual' HP if everyhing is reduced by armor). Damage reduction is also a fundamentally stronger defense than maximum hit points (as driven home so forcefully by the 55 HP monk). In PvE were the vast, vast majority of the damage is strong normal attacks and spells that are reduced by armor, Defensive upgrades outperform Fortitude upgrades almost unconditionally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Erighan

Yes, it's nice to have +60 health for heavy degen and armor ignoring spikes, but after that health has been depleted, your Monks now have to replenish it.

Monks having to replenish it isn't a huge deal usually. If you're worried more about heavy degen and spikes with a large armor ignoring component, such as what you see oftentimes in GvG, then defensive upgrades are effectively worthless since the important attacks ignore them for the most part. Then you want health by default to make you more durable against their spikes. Max health isn't a bad thing, it's just that other things situationally outperform it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

1. more energy = more heals

5 more energy is one more heal, conditionally. Max energy translates into more spells in PvE, where battles usually last 15 seconds before everyone gets to recharge to full, but in PvP all it provides you is flexibility for your energy management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

3. E-denial will have a harder time activating mind wrack with higher max energy, initially

Who cares if it takes another 10 seconds to completely zero you out? Unlike someone hiding energy you're going to be completely screwed once you get there, and that max energy is just going to be a meaningless number.

In Taipei, against two energy debilitation mesmers in game two, Awowa of Treacherous Empire was running a Word of Healing monk with a maximum energy of 19. Guess how valuable they think max energy is in an energy debil matchup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

Not to mention, if you are a big fan or armor over energy, then you might not want to take the tatoos, as they have a lower armor rating then the others but the best energy bonus.

The other armor sets are so bad. The equivilent trade on Wanderers is 1.6 energy per point of armor vs. elemental. No thanks. Judge's is kinda blah too. On the chestpiece, it's 1.06- energy per point of armor vs. physical. On the legs, 1.2 energy per point of armor vs. physical. On hands and feet, 1.6.

Sometimes you want to make those trades anyway because max energy really isn't all that valuable. But that's nowhere near the efficiency you get on staff upgrades.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mage Henchnem

I would like to see a monk, even with 100 armor be effective with 25 energy.

I'd trade 15 max energy on a monk for 40 unconditional armor. In a heartbeat. I'd make that trade for half the armor.
Peace,
-CxE

TheOneMephisto · Mar 22, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

I always go for defensive of defensive, just because defense helps you with every hit that you take. Health only really helps you once you get down to the last 30-60 health, the rest of the time it's doing nothing. Especially because of the fact that over a long battle, 10 defense can mean a LOT of damage prevented. If you're getting degen'd to death or spiked, just switch to some +health items, but for most of the battle, +defense is more useful.

Mage Henchnem · Mar 22, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoflame

Being able to focus swap up to a high energy level is strictly better than starting off at that energy level. Therefore, you don't know what you're talking about.

If you read the post you would see that I do focus swap as well, so before you interject your expert opinion, read the post.

Rey Lentless · Mar 22, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

I go for defense on both mods, and +physical for armor. Unless it's something like a prot monk or other enchant heavy build, in which case I'll throw in an enchant wrapping. +20 armor against warriors is a significant amount. I think most spikes account for normal +hitpoints, and I don't see +60 saving people.

Mage Henchnem · Mar 22, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

I think most people missed the part that I said initialy I prefer to start without the -1 energy items I do bring them, but for my non -1 items I prefer an energy mod over armor or health. I am not saying focus swapping is bad, but I dont think that you should make it a necessity to your ability to preform effectivly. I do use -1 off hand but when I have a staff its usually an insightful staff of enchanting, and my other two items are the big energy items.